and merchants that sell our product. vo: get the card built for business spending. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. hello from new york. i am chris hayes. this is the sunday edition of "up." officials are blaming three deaths on a snowstorm and also left a million people without power, my poor parents among them. and mitt romney has 22% of support from likely gop voters, right behind herman cain with 23%. i will be performing i am america live on set later. that's a joke. and right now i am joined by the middle east editor of "news

week" magazine, and the director of the nonpartisan advocacy group, and then an author of a great new book "for liberty and justice for some," and then karen hunter, journalists and professor, and pulitzer prize winner, and our panelists yesterday so we have to book you together at some point, don't you think? >> no. >> so first off let's talk about the week the president had. a very productive week for him. on monday he announced a plan to give much needed mortgage relief to under water homeowners, and on tuesday he changed community health centers to hire veterans, and then lowering monthly payments for student loans, and graduates that have loans through the federal student loan program, and then helping find the services needed from local governments, and it's all part

of the campaign, and it was all done without congress. the president was not shy about it in his weekly video address yesterday. >> the truth is we can no longer wait for congress to do its job. the middle class families who have been struggling for years are tired of waiting. they need help now. so where congress won't act, i will. >> congress is not happy, or some members are not happy with this. this is house speaker, john boehner, he is into separation of powers, and he is speaking on the radio show. >> i thought we were a nation of laws, and that our country was governed buy our constitution, and the idea you will go around congress it's almost laughable. so we are keeping a very close eye on the administration to make sure that they are following the law and following the constitution. >> john boehner sounding like glenn greenwald.

the reason i want to highlight it, it's a fascinating level. at one level everybody is constantly saying obama needs to be tougher and unilateral and stop negotiating with congress, and then on the other side it's another step in the decay of our political institution, which is article 1 congress, and it's viewed as dysfunctional by the president and public with 9% approval ratings, and what do you think, as somebody who is written about the rule of law, what is your impression of these sorts of moves, and the president is not obviously okaying torture, though. >> right. these are not highly controversial positions. he is not bypassing

congressional prohibitions with the way bush and cheney did, and so to me they are not that both bothersome. and there are's a problem with continuing looking to the president as a centralized figure who is supposed to be taking all kinds of steps and if congress is not acting to cheer on a president because he liked the result does have serious implications going forward. >> i think there's a quote from bill daily that he gave an interview with politico, and he was explaining the difference between -- this is something, karen, you and i have spoke about. a lot of the president supporters we can get into some of the foreign policies. and some say, look at the foreign policy where he is sitting in the seat of the presidency and can decree left and right who shall live and die, and things like that, and compare it to the american domestic policy, and he is more

effective in one more than the other. and this is bill daily's look. he says on the foreign policy military side, you can act pretty quickly, and is that why the president, based on upon frustration, is doing this. karen, what do you make of this? do you think it's much needed leadersh leadership? >> absolutely. it's brilliant. in the election cycle, it's perfect. he can say i tried to work with these people, and see the results, and now he is taking the message directly to the people, and i have been saying it to the last two years, take it to the people and it's having a great impact. >> the problem is we couldn't wait a year ago. you say the timing is perfect -- >> for him. >> exactly. that's the problem. the problem looks too perfect, cynical, i think.

>> i think because he realizes that congress cannot go back into their districts and saying this is what we are going to give you, we are doing x, y., z., he is dominating locally the media cycle and giving them something that all of a sudden the american people are saying, at least he is trying. it's not the national conversation, but he is digging deeply into the legislation. >> i think that is a button for the real act, from yes we can to at least he is trying. that is the arc. absolutely. if you talk to the white house, i think -- respond to the point of chris, what struck me in we can't wait, it was a slogan, and we couldn't wait six months ago either. >> people are very pickle, fare weather, and you have to plan it at the right time. had he done this a year ago, would it have given congress

time to mount the attack, and boehner sounded like a wining impotent person. it's perfect timing for obama going into the election. >> ti question whether or not - everybody knows the election season is heating up. he sounded like the candidate of 2008 with the impathetic tones. and i wonder if it will intensify the cynicism they were trying to say why -- >> if you are getting your mortgage and student loans taken care of, you are not caring about whether or not this is done for political reasons. >> let me briefly say something on the two proposals. the student loan program is allowing students that graduate to only pay 10% of the income

for 20 years and then have it cancelled. i read one calculation that looked at a typical borrower that is $80 a month, and the refinancing on the mortgages are for loans owned by fannie and freddie for people who have under water mortgaged but are current. the mortgage policy preserved the central obamaism problem, and there is no principle reductions. there's losses on the books, and nobody wants to take the losses, and certainly not the banks. >> but he did a loan modification program that has been in effect -- >> right, and it has been a colossal failure, i have to say. >> i know people who benefited from it. so for people who are getting the relief, this means something. >> so i wonder if the republicans find themselves --

what is so good interesting about the dynamic, and it does feel like campaign season, and it feels like the republicans have had the other gravity that keeps other parties accountable, and at some point they have to create something to go back into their district, and do we -- this is from a democratic donor who recently had dinner with a senior administration economic official. i thought the quote was so revealing. he talked about the official and he said he spent the whole night in a horrible defensive stance complaining about how in the '90s republicans made deals and now they don't and then talking about the deals obama hopes to make, we were dumbfounded. even if the president is saying we can't wait, the posture is still expecting the normal terms of gravity apply, and they have not so far with the republicans, right? >> i think one of the biggest

problems right now with the obama administrations is they are hopeful and they are hoping to negotiate and come to the table. that's not part of the strategy. if you can't negotiate with somebody who wants to see you fail, you are not going to have any results. he realizes right now that his time is ticking, and if he is able to pass any of the reforms, it has to be before 2013, otherwise it's too late. >> but it's not going to pass because it's so dysfunctional. it's striking to see the president of the united states saying because we have a dysfunctional -- it's a radical word to say we have a dysfunctional congress. >> and that's why we were downgraded in the first place, because it was not whether or not we received the debt ceiling or not, and how can you expect people to invest in us if nobody is talking to each other.

>> that's a slippery slope. how do you keep working with people not working for you. you can't criticize the president for going off the farm when they are not working with him. chlt i live in europe, and when i come back, what always surprises me is not that the republicans hate obama, it's so many of my liberal friends hate obama. >> you hangout in the wrong crowds obviously. >> you are right. >> there's a lot of disillusion, and they don't like this guy. he can make the republicans look like fools, and he is doing a good job of that. >> now. >> i think the problem of the white house is everybody looks to the president to solve the problems, and even though they hate congress and republicans more than the white house, and if things go wrong they blame the incumbents, which is the

obama administration. i think that's the strategy. >> quickly, congresswoman karen bass of california is going to join us right after this. looking good! you lost some weight. you noticed! these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them. how'd you do it? eating right, whole grain. [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios... five whole grains, 110 calories.

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joining us now is congresswoman, karen bass, a democrat from california. how are you doing? >> doing fine. >> can i just thank you from the bottom of my heart for waking up at this ungodly hour in california. glad to have you here. >> thank you. >> and we were talking about the president's we can't wait

initiatives and the degree to which he is doing that, and what is your feeling about him doing a run around congress? >> i did hear the earlier segment, and i am a new member of congress and have been there 11 months, but i am happy about it. i think the president has absolutely no choice. the only thing, this just has been 11 months because the 111th congress, if you remember, of course, worked well. we had the house, we had the senate, and the president and the 111th congress accomplished a tremendous amount. so it's just been since boehner and the republicans took over this year that things have been so difficult. >> as a new member of congress, i am curious, you know, congress reliably ranks as the least institution that is least trusted in the american life,

and as a new member of the institution, what is your sense of why that is? as somebody who has not been aculturated. >> well, i did come from the state legislature -- >> oh, good. >> people are facing foreclosures and unemployment, and i think if you want to look historically at that, the ratings of congress or state legislators definitely go down when the economy is down, and people are suffering and hurting right now. of course they look to the leadership to say solve the problems, and that's clearly not what is happening right now. >> do you feel like your colleagues across the aisle have -- are subject to the political gravity of this? we have been talking about how people vote out incumbents when the economy is bad, but it seems the republican incumbents don't

feel like that is going to be the case for them because they don't seem motivated to do much to lift the economy back up. >> well, especially the new freshmen, a number of them came in over there, 87 freshmen, and nine democrats, and many of the republican freshmen came in on the tea party wave. i have to say for some of them, i think they didn't know what to expect. many had not served in public office before, and they came in with one agenda, and that was essentially to reveal health care reform and to make sure that obama only had one term in his presidency. and i think when you are locked in to two positions like that, and a very conservative ideology, then you come in and you really wind up being stuck. i do think that that's the situation that a lot of them are finding themselves in, especially because of the jobs bill. >> congresswoman, i want to ask you about one of the things you said that i found interesting, which is obama faced clear

obstructionism on the part of the republican congress, which is certainly true, and for that first two years of his presidency, his party controlled both houses of congress with fairly sizeable ma your tjoritm much positive stuff was done, and american saw the wall street and corporate america thriving, and there are huge foreclosures, and do you think when we controlled both houses of congress will resonate politically and is it true given how much economic suffering there was and the elites drived at that period? >> i think it's substantively true, and the economy in california was in a free fall, and if we did not have the stimulus package, the economy in california would have been much, much worse. so it's a very difficult narrative because the economy

might have stabilized somewhat, but people are still suffering. i think historically when you look back whether it's health care reform, seven presidents tried to do that. finance reform, maybe it was not enough, and we all would have liked to have seen more, and the auto industry exists now. if we had been going where we were going last year, we don't know whether the auto industry would be in existence. i think a lot was done in the 111th congress, but because the unemployment rate was so high and the economy has not turned around for so many people, i think it's difficult narrative to explain and people to understand. >> this is cakaren hunter. do you think any part of the jobs bill will be passed? the president said pass this bill and now we had to chop it up and now it's dead in the water or is something going to happen? >> that's the dilemma the republicans face. there are parts of the jobs bill

that were republican ideas, right? so now that the president has put them forward, all of a sudden the republicans don't want to do them anymore, and that's why the house republicans, in particular, are in a dilemma. i think that's where we all can participate. to me it's not just about congress or the president, but it's about what is going on in new york and los angeles and oakland, and the movement to fight for jobs, it's really going to take mass pressure to get this congress to act. so i do think that there are pieces of the jobs bill that will pass. now, what concerns me is that there are some parts of the jobs bill that really will impact a lot of communities that i don't think the republicans are interested in. i mean, you know, the fact of hiring teachers, the extending unemployment, and the rehab of houses, summer jobs, the parts of the jobs bill that in particular impact lowncome communities, i am concerned that those won't get addressed, and i think it's important that we

push for it. >> a democrat from california, who is up early with us this morning and we are very grateful. thank you so much to have you back. >> thank you for having me on. >> we'll be right back after this. [ cellphone rings ] cut! [ monica ] i have a small part in a big movie. i thought we'd be on location for 3 days, it's been 3 weeks. so, i used my citi simplicity card to pick up a few things. and i don't have to worry about a late fee. which is good... no! bigger! bigger! [ monica ] ...because i don't think we're going anywhere for a while. [ male announcer ] write your story with the new citi simplicity card. no late fees. no penalty rate. no worries. get started at citisimplicity.com.

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we are back. we have glenn greenwalt at the table. you make your home in brazil. >> that's true. >> and that's an awesome place. >> especially this morning. >> yeah, exactly. and you i once had a beer -- >> a rendezvous down -- >> yes, in rio. and you are talking about the book that you wrote, which is a phenomenal book, and it's called "for liberty and justice for some." it's persuasive and raging, and tightly and rigorously argued. what is the main argument of the

book? >> it's in essence the moegs egregious crimes committed by the financial and political elit elites, and various episodes of obstruction of justice and an attack on iraq, and the crimes that per sip tatd the 2008 financial crisis, and none of those crimes triggered any form of meaningful criminal investigation or prosecution. at the same time the united states has in terms of ordinary americans created the opposite world, we have the largest prison state, and one of the harshest and merciless, where we imprison over 2 million of our citizens, and you get no due process of any kind, it's a word of lawlessness. and it's intended to be the

anchoring for equality before the law. we turned it into the opposite. we immunize the post powerful figures while subjecting to everybody extraordinary harsh and unforgiving penal systems. >> you make an interesting point, which is founders are not crazy about equality as a general matter, but very intensely focused on equal -- equality under the law, as we should say equality under the law for white people at that period of time. very focused on that as the one equalizing force, and you actually argue the precipitating complaint, right, that produces the revolution? >> yeah, i think it's a precipitating complaint, and it motivating the protest movements today, and the founders loved wealth and economy, and what they said was that those out come in equalities will be legitimate and justified only if we play by the same set of

rules. obviously they violated that principle in all kinds of violent and heinous ways, but the idea we're all equal before the law was the aspiration that led to the process for the last 200 years and 200 years after that, and then what we have done in the last few decades, that they should be held accountable, and we argue it's important to move forward and not look backwards. you could have an argument about whether or not that was fair and reasonable or whether or not that applied to everybody. but that isn't the case, it only applies to elites.

>> you mentioned the forepardon of nixon, and you identify it as a turning point in terms of how the sort of political ae laets and the main culture views the law. we have a little sound from a familiar face, a man that worked for gerald ford, his chief of staff, praising his decision to pardon nixon at ford's funeral. >> this president's hardest decision was among his first. in september of 1974, gerald ford was almost alone in understanding that there can be no healing without pardon. the consensus holds that this decision cost him an election, and that is very likely so. the criticism was fierce. but president ford had larger concerns at heart. and it is far from the worst fate that a man should be

remembered for his capacity to forgive. >> heartwarming words from richard cheney about the president's decision to pardon. why do you focus so much on that in the book? >> because there were -- it's always been the case if you are rich and powerful, you have advantaged in the legal system. if you watch ford delivering the speech to the nation where he justified it, and he is very uncomfortable, and his press secretary resigned 30 days after -- >> and wildly unpopular. >> and this idea that while he actually said in there, of course law is no respecter of person, which is the crux -- he added a newly concocted amendment, but it's a respecter of reality meaning if it's too

inconvenient, you see how elites looked upon that. and they knew if the rational was -- well, you have elites who are conspiring and it's in their own interest to maintain the law-breaking license, and it's the same elites that impose harsh punishments on everybody else. the minute he got caught committing a crime, it was minutized. >> the hypocrisy is woven into the fab of the quote, unquote, justice system. it's not laid out in the book that it's not just about ae laets but about white people, justice for white people. if you were going to talk about the justice system, you have to go back to the origins of policing and why we had patty

rollers to capture and keep in line the slaves. if you look at the 13th amendment, which abolishes slavery in the country, it abolishes it with one exception, the prison system that that >> well, the drug warfare, for example, is extraordinary racist in terms of how it's applied and what the impact is. that's essentially -- the problem is the last part of the book contrast with how we treat elites with ordinary americans, and it's extremely racist, and it punishes the poor and so you have the most marginal, and the war on terror aims at muslims. you have elites benefiting from it and the harsh penal system still offends our basic notions of court fairness. >> and i think, to your point, what we are see something a booming industry targeting undocumented workers.

for the first time in 2008, latinos surpassed the prison populations, and you are seeing whole families behind bars and nobody is talking about -- >> it's slavery, right? >> and you are really going after the folks most margin marginaliz marginalized, and in arizona to go and see a loved one, you have to pay $25. >> i am curious to get your response to this. as some people -- as we occupy wall street, we see who is the law there for is playing out in peoples' minds, and then who are you protecting? that has been the chant. as somebody who spent a lot of time working and writing about the nypd, what is your response? >> keep in mind, the police are about the least elitist forces

you can imagine. and police turned out and said we ought to fix tickets, we have been doing this for years. if that was not a working class things -- >> give them a free pass. >> i am not giving them a free pass, i am saying it's not that kind of structure you are talking about. >> let me help folks. there's a bunch of indictments in new york, and this gets to glenn's point. 16 indictments in the court and the bronx for an investigation that found 1 to $2 million in ticket fixing which is cops making tickets go away for friends and brothers and girlfriends, and when the indictments happened hundreds of cops showed up and notified the police union to go and cheer the people being indicted, because they said this is one of the things we do as cops, this is part of what we do, and good

luck trying to do that if you are an 18-year-old in the bronx. we will talk more about a two-tier justice system when we come back. [ female announcer ] anyone can say their hair color is less damaging. natural instincts can prove it. and they did. it's the only hair color that's clinically proven to be less damaging.

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and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say. at&t. we are here in new york, and karen hunter is reading the twitter response to his comments. we were just talking about the two-tier justice system, and you wrote a book about the nypd and i went on a position about yesterday's arraignments, and didn't let you finish. i want you to respond. >> i look at the decision in america when you talk about the cops or a number of groups, and it tends to be on the liberal side, this effort to say well occupy wall street, these people speak for us, and they speak for our anger and everybody, and i don't think they are speaking for everybody. i think a lot of the times the people speaking for an awful lot of americans are people that look and act and sound like the

cops. >> you must be kidding me? >> i am sure you don't agree. >> no, i don't. >> and i think liberals back themselves back in the corner, and they identify with the michael moores. i don't think people identify with michael moore, do they? >> i don't know if they identify to cops tear-gassing peaceful protesters, either. >> no. >> and when you say liberal -- when you say liberal, we need to define that. when i hear you saying that, i am not hearing you talk about people in my community at all. i don't know anybody else at the table who has to train their young black kids how to respond or react to cops, because to you cops are your friends, cops are people you look forward to seeing. when i get pulled over, it's not so easy and nice. i am not getting my tickets fixed. and you don't worry about losing

your life. there's a different approach and ideology as to how certain ethnic groups -- >> i think the occupy movement, you are suggesting that it's nothing more than a clich'ed liberal movement, and you see americans in fairly poor areas favoring it, and that's because when it is designed to do is express general anger with the political structure, with how things exercise power, and people across the spectrum feel like they have lost faith in political institutions. so it's not do they love michael moore, it's are they angry with the political process. >> and when we say they're angry, they are not gar carrying guns. so the idea that there's a division with how we are

treating the occupy wall street 99%, it's distracting. >> aggressive is carrying guns in new york city. >> it was not in new york city. >> but, i want to get back to this two-tiered system, because it's what happens on the american justice second tier, and it's the world of stop and frisk, and a wurorld of getting8 months for carrying a dime bag. >> and on the other end, though, one of the great ironies is that we have seen this -- this administration, this present barack obama, america's first black president, when the skip gates thing went down, he had to walk back so far that we all had to watch him walk it back, and this president has put more

undocumented people in the detention, and deported than any other administration and extended the two-tier justice system for the specific subgroup, the group that lives outside the law because they are not citizens, and it's striking to me that that would happen from this president, don't you think? >> you're talking about people who are not citizens legally versus people who have been citizens for the last 200 years. >> we have american citizens right now that are getting processed as undocumented because they can't prove they are citizens. that's how broken it is. we have cases, where this is not such a funny story for him, and he had a southern draw and they were saying he was a russian immigrant. we will talk more about american justice and injustice right after this break.

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we need to lookforward as opposed to looking backwards. >> i am more interested in looking forward than i am looking backwards. we should be looking forward and not backwards. i want to look forward and not backwards. >> that's president barack obama expressing a desire to look forward, not lean forward, but to look forward and not lean backwards. and that's a mantra for the administration. and in your new book, that phrase imnats earlier and comes from an earlier time. one of the signature parts of the obama campaign was sort of restoring rule of law and civil liberties, and what has disappointed a lot of people, there has been zero accountability for people that constructed the --

>> well, civilly, there has not been a single victim of torture who had a day in court, and the obama justice department said it's too secret for courts to look at. these officials have all kinds of immunities, and prevented every one of them from having a day in court. >> and the argument at every junctur juncture, it's a remarkable legal document that says we can't argue this because it's too secret and you can't know about it fundamentally. what do the folks at the table think about -- >> i think the president had a lot on his plate. he had to do a lot of different things as congresswoman bass

pointed out. and he is being presidential. >> but that, i think, it gets to the exact point glenn is making which is at a certain point we care about the rule of law or we don't. at a certain point, the rule of law and the notion that the people at the highest levels are subject to it -- >> then we should prosecute dick cheney and george bush -- >> that's his argument. >> part of the reason is that we are saying we need to look forward, and we're washing our hants, and it's like putting into question like how are we going to make sure china is up lifting their civil rights if we cannot? >> i don't think the chinese will look at us, no, we're not going to do this -- >> well, it's the value that we cannot say we're squeaky clean anymore. >> i don't think being squeaky

clean helps very much. >> i want to get this point, and to what extent does the guantanamo and the drone attacks and the whole variety of legaling different ways, from the bush administration and some in the obama administration, to what extent does that erode the status that we have in the world that you spent covering in the middle east? >> well, occupying iraq and afghanistan for the last ten years, that is what erodes moral authority. i don't think the americans and most of the rest of the world care about drone attacks here or there and everywhere if you are attacking a handful of bad guys, but when you are occupying another sovereign state, and telling a population it has to live by your rules, that's a huge moral problem. >> once you have done that, can

you get it back? >> no. it's very, very hard to do. and i think if obama has a real problem with all that, and it's been that he has been so slow getting out of raung and afghanistan. when are we going to get out of afghanistan? >> there's a scandal about home-grown terrorist, and getting caught for portraying terrorists plots, and they say united states has been spending drones and killing huge numbers of women and children, which is true, and that that creates very high levels of anti-american sentiment, as is the idea that we as the united states can protect our war criminals and president obama gave an interview on indonesian television last year where the administration has been pressuring indonesia to have war crime tribunals, and he told the indonesians there is no way for

you to go into the future without resolving the past, and so we pr-- >> this has not been the rule of law in america? >> no, we are seeing obama as the opportunity to clean a lot up. that's why he was voted into office. >> and a corrupt or debased continuity is still corrupt or debased and we'll talk about that. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. [ female announcer ] get money saving coupons at aleve.com. i go to e-trade and tap into the power of revolutionary mobile apps

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we're talking about america's two-tiered justice system, and we are here with christopher duicky, and this conversation has been fascinating about the double standards. what ultimately do you think is the way to restore to get back to the rule of law given the

very real obstacles that there are. there's a case to be made. to briefly outline it, you saw instincts, very strong powerful instincts in the administration to pursue the rule of law at the beginning. there was the executive order that they were going to close gonzal guantanamo, and they nominated johnson, a strong defender of civil liberties, and one of the biggest critics of the torture regime, and that was met with a massive backlash, and it seemed like that backlash was successful, that it did coward them a little bit. what do you see as restoring the rule of law? >> well, when the rule of law becomes eroded, and the political institutions don't work any longer to eer effect .

and we are dissenting from the system itself, because it's so stacked against us. the kind of change and these injustices don't go away, and i think them taking to the streets and putting fear in the heart of the elites is exactly what should be happening more and more. >> putting fear in the heart of the elites, and that's going to be -- >> pay back. >> the best guess out there, next. stay with us. [ female announcer ] find yourself sometimes cleaning up after your dishcloth? bounty extra soft can help. it's super durable, and in this lab test bounty extra soft

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this morning we have the middle east editor of "news week" magazine, and the executive director of latino, and author of "with liberty and justice for some", and karen hunter here at the table. and the estimates are that tomorrow, they sort of do the symbolic thing every time we hit a population mark at the u.n., but we are about to hit $7 bi 7 billion on the planet earth. people have different inf infruitions about it. and there was a book called "the population bomb," which was a best-seller. it became a article and faith

that we are headed towards a crisis or crash from over population, and we were going to have too many people for the amount of food for the sport, and the green revolution happened, and was an amazing agriculture, and the mass starvation predicted didn't happen, and there's no these short of different infau electric ch -- intellectual camp. and it means 7 billion people coming up with stuff that can help us. and on the other side, it's 7 billion people emitting carbon and using water and the scarce resources we have. so i wanted to bring in jeremy rifkin, his latest book is the third industrial revolution, how lateral power is transforming energy and the economy and the world. good morning. >> good morning.

>> when you look at this short of intellectual debates, and they are called the corn copens, and there's no problem with restraint, and human ingenuity will solve everything, and then there are the profits of doom, and then where do you sort of place yourself? how do you understand the milestone that we are hitting this week with 7 billion people? >> i think that one statistic tells it all. i teach at the school and in the executive education program, so we bring in business leaders from all over the world, and the first thing that i ask them is do you know what the primary economy of the earth is? of course it's photosynthesis, and that's the bottom line now. this statistic is numbering. we human beings, we have 7 billion of us on the planet. but we only represent one-half of 1% of all of the living biomass on the earth, one-half

of 1%. and we are currently this morning using 31% of all the photosynthesis of this planet and that's unsustainable and takes my breath away. we're moving from 7 to 9 billion people. this just won't hold. we have three issues on population. food. energy. water. and then the question, the ecological footprint i would say, and those are the things that we need to examine carefully. the food issue is interesting. the question is, can we feed 7 billion people. we have very little land left for agriculture and 850 million people in harm's way, and not getting a full diet and some are on the verge of starvation and others are hungry, and 40% of the human race is making less than $2 a day. but one-third of all of the agriculture land in the world today is being used to grow feed

grain for animals to the export to the developed word, and not food grade for human beings. that means the wealthy consumers eat way up on the food chain with grain-fed beef and other meat products, while the poor are disinfranchised and don't have the land to grow the basic food. and we are going to move, and that will mean 60% of the land will be turned over to feed grain and not food grain, and it's not sustainable. >> it seems to me, the problem is not so much the number of people, it's the number of consumers and the size of the consumption. i -- years ago, i was hanging out with jock kustow 20 years ago, and he used to say we could

ha have 10 billion people on the earth, and be fine, but not many americans because if we consume the way americans consume, we would be finished. >> there's a fact the americans have to stop living in the ways that we do. and we saw at the margins, making the behavioral adjustments are possible. all the humers cruising through the streets disappeared when the gas went to $4. so it can be done. the changes of the average size of the american home that has grown over the last 50 years, jeremy, i wonder, do you think the political culture of the country is so focused on more, it seems impossible and unattainable to have a political message that tells people there will have to be less consumption. >> it's not so much how many people are on the planet, but how much of the planet's energy and resources each person is

using, in other words, each person's ecological footprint, and in the developed world where there is a small ecological footprint per person. we run to the caring capacity, and we're running out of fossil fuels, which is the basics for our civilization, and our fertilize fertilizers, and construction materials and pharmaceutical products, and they are all really made out of or moved by fossil fuels, and now we hit two milestones there on sustainable. we hit peak oil per capita, and we are running out of crude oil. when we had the crisis in 2008 when oil it $147 a barrel, you remember all the prices went up on the supply chain for everything else because they are made out of oil. purchasing power plummeted and the entire economy shut down. that was the actual economic

earthquake. the collapse of the financial market 60 days later, that was the aftershock. and every time we try to regrow the economy, at the same rate we were growing before july of 2008, there is just too much demand now against crude oil and fossil fuels, and purchasing power stops and the economy keeps collapsing, and that's the problem we are having now, there's no way to get out of it because we're running short on fossil fuels like we are running short on the land, and water is a big problem. it has to do with climate change which people don't really realize. we're going to look at a 3-degree celsius rise according to the u.n. panel on climate, but what people need to understand is for every one degree that the temperature rises from an industrial induced

carbon monoxide, the earth sucks up that precipitation, meaning the whole water is disrupted, which means more tsunamis and hurricanes and the ecosystem can't catch up -- >> jeremy, i am sorry. we have to go to break now that you terrified every single viewer of the show, and they found out the world is inning. jerry, sorry to cut you off there. we are talking about the 7 million mark. we will be back with the panel after this. [ male announcer ] nature valley

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all right. well, in what may be the week's

most undercovered story, rick perry is in hot water for the texas redistricting plan he approved. there is preduckbly a whole industry indicated to drawing district lines so politicians can pick their own voters. and with the benefit of new software it has grown more and more sophisticated every year. and then for 17 southern states, to gain approval from the department of justice, or federal judges for the proposed plan. when you a this year the texas legislature proposed and rick perry approved a new map and opted not to get

clarence for it, which is the standard, and they go to the doj and say is this okay, and the doj signs off or doesn't and they work it out, and texas said we will do it. and texas added enough population for four new congressional districts and most of the population is latino, the texas state map includes not a single new majority district. so they are contesting it, saying it's designed specifically to reduce the power over the 4,000 state's latinos. do you think the story is getting enough attention? >> it's under the radar. redistricting is not very sexy. and when you talk about the four congressional seats that texas won, three was because of the latino boom, and the other one is because of the displacements

of the katrina victims. what is most fascinating, the republicans are saying it's by accident, and then you look at the smith e-mails, and we know what they are doing and maybe they won't catch on to us. not only are latinos feeling disinfranchised, but it's so blatant. >> we have an e-mail not from him, but an e-mail from an expert on this, who wrote to the people drawing this map, and saying this is not going to fly. he writes the committee map has passed and has no chance of preclearance, and the map i sent you -- he's basically saying you should use my map because it's one that will work. this is the analysis that practiced in the voting rights, and red flag you are doing it wrong, and this will be struck down. i would encourage you to speak

with them about the economy past map. they will be from evil d.c., and these e-mails are so damming because they just show that perry approved this. if we had a different commit kul culture, this would be one of the biggest scandaled -- i mean, you have what looks like on its face a conspiracy to essentially disinfranchise -- >> this has been a republican tactic for the last decade. this is where the justice department has done an outstanding jobs, and that's important. and if you remember the u.s. attorney scandal, where the bush white house tried with karl rove fired republicans that did not carry out there agenda, it's to prevent voters that they want to prevent from voting by claiming voter fraud and couching

themselves in the civil rights act, and it's really about disenfranchising people through the voter fraud suits. you are right, redistricting is not sexy and doesn't get a lot of attention, but it's insidious on the core democratic right, which is the right to vote. >> we have a graphic that shows a map of the various areas in which they are pursuing. this is all the rage now and being passed from state to state. what i think is interesting about these is african-americans have the intense long tortured history with the access to the ballot and people died to get that right, and we are seeing latinos on the other end of this, and this is being used to dis disinfranchise as well. >> there are 18 million voters that lost their homes since 2008, and they have to go back

and get reregistered. these foreclosure rates are in the battle states that will matter. they are passing very stringent voter i.d. laws. if you lost your home, that's temporariy for you, and you are not going to get an id. >> the more disturbing thing for me, you have mostly republicans who are basically saying we don't want these people to vote because we know they are not going to vote for us, which says we are not doing anything to help these people and we are not going to pass legislation or do anything in our government to help these people, so we don't want them voting. that's more disturbing to me -- >> in texas, i can be a student, and show my id and that's not valid, but i can show my nra

card and -- >> is that true? >> absolutely true. >> it's considered legitimate voter id for the -- >> but a student is not. >> we have been fighting that battle. that's as transparent you can get as who they want to participate at the polls. and walmart have teamed up to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar... ♪ ...saving on medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details.

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back talking about the new texas redistricting map approved by presidential candidate and texas governor, rick perry, that has precipitated a contestation for viting the voting rights act because it disinchants latino voters. and this is from a republican state republic complaining about why it's important to sort of keep her people together in the new map. she says you all are protected

by the voting rights, and we are not. >> wow. >> and that's a pretty damming thing to say. when you look at the politics of rick perry and immigration and latinos, i think one of the things interesting to me is, karen made the point that what this shows is that when you have political representatives going for the pathway of disinfranchisement, instead of cultivating relationships, it means they have given up. disinfranchisement is what you do. republicans have given up on the african-american vote. the vote something 90% for democrats. latinos are not the same way. and yet it seems increasingly that that is the road the republican party is going down. i am shocked because it seems to me like electoral suicide.

>> and yeah, karl rove blatantly said we need the latino vote. i think what has happened, though, because of the immigration rhetoric, and the rhetoric has been so anti-latino that all of a sudden the republicans are looking back, and they have been very stau taenlg -- strategic. and what they are seeing is we have a latino voting problem. we don't have this election cycle to fix it. and maybe the memories will dull and in 2016, we will come back and court them. >> wasn't rick perry boo'd -- >> well, this is smoke and mirrors. he says out loud what he thinks the media will pick up smartly so it sounds like the latinos are on the -- like they are on

the latino's side. >> but the policy was to allow -- >> undocumented people -- >> well, every republican debate is going to be like, who is going to be skewed for their -- >> when you poll independents and moderate republic cubs, they do believe in immigration reform. at that moment he was not talking to aleaee latinos -- >> and yet he does this perry m mandering thing. >> and he was already in decline. the one thing he could hold up is the possibility of attracting

the voters -- >> what i think is so dysfunctional about the dynamic when you zoom out and view it, on the right you have essentially you protect your demagogue, and give the kind of rhetoric that is really offensive to latino voters, and that allows democrats to completely do nothing affirmatively on immigration, because it's so toxic on the right. this president can deport more immigrants than any other president in history, and the op hundreds are so stark, the rhetoric that is coming from the republican side is so stark it creates a false sense of -- >> perhaps you will not see it in this election, and the fact that the latinos are moderate,

and you have an independent wing not identifying with republicans or democrats, and so we may not see it in the election cycle, but everything is getting built around the fact that the democrats and republicans can't figure out the latinos, they are more likely to be independent than anything else. >> seems like republicans are engaged in the self-destruction which is unnecessary. i think the influence of the tea party has been overstated in the way of winning them over to get the nomination. in 2008 the wisdom was john mccain could never get the nomination, and -- >> yeah, and the tea party hated him. >> they did hate them back then, and he won because electability matters and i wonder if they are not shooting themselves in the foot for no reason. [ female announcer ] from the moment we arrive... we don't want anything to slow us down so it's surprising that most women aren't getting enough calcium. with over 25 flavors, yoplait original gives you

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it's time for us to take a look at what is in some of the papers this weekend. i want to talk about the column that was posted last night, and was totally going viral on social media. i saw somebody tweeted it, and i tweeted it and it was getting a ton of traffic. the reason it's shocking and somehow perfectly symbolizing our times, a law firm in buffalo, i believe, they process a lot of foreclosures for the big banks, right, so there are legal proceedings, and you have to serve people and kick them out of their houses, and it's grim work taking their houses away tr them. a former employee of this law firm sent photos from last year's halloween party, in which

the employees were mocking the people being taken out of their homes. it looks like the halloween party consisted of, you know, of like of tent city having been constructed. i want to read a statement. it has been suggested that some employees dress in attire that blocks or belittled the flight of those that lost their homes. nothing could be further from the truth. and he suggested at the end of the column, look at the photos and draw your own conclusion about the validity of the statement. it's extremely upsetting because it shows one of the things that we have seen in the erosion of

accountability that happened with the crisis is this kind of corruption that seeps through, and we saw e-mails from traders who were trading instruments they put together they knew were going to blow up joking about the fact they knew they would blow up. one of the themes of the decade is when people are in institutions that are corrupt, that corruption seeps into themselves and seeps into their own soul. their consciences have to deal with it somehow and the way they deal with it is from a mocking humor, and there's a slightly proud of the violation that they are getting away with, and i think it creates a poisonous toxic culture. >> i think it's america right now and just how we are. not sensitive. detached. i think people going through there thing were selfish and i

think it's part of our culture, it's not this institution or that institution, and it's part of who we are right now. >> i think the pictures are a testimony to the 99%. it's increasingly what we see is the rich never have to talk to somebody that may have lost their home. and not only can we desense ties, but we go against the american values that we're in this together. >> and it complicates the 99% where the police firing tear-gas in the crowd of the 99%, and i am sure a lot would not make more than $77,000 a year. the cops that threw the flash grenade or whatever it was that hit scott olson, the iraqi war vet, he was part of the 99% as well. there's an effective coalition that does clevelago along with . and then at the same time,

people go at each other. >> and i think it's a concept of -- i don't know what was going through his mind, or these individuals are like, i have a job. once you have a job it's like you have a harder time sympathizing. we have 6 million children under poverty lines. nobody is talking about that. it's long lasting. imagine the kids growing up. >> the vast majority of the people losing their homes are people that worked their entire lives, and that's not a representation of what is really going on. >> one of the things that happens is the more fatter they get the less empathy it has. we have no concern in the political classes of joblessness. and the people in the policy making positions, their families are not the ones suffering from

joblessness and hopelessness. and you know, it used to be the ae laets and barens and tycoons, they would be very concerned about how the poor people perceived them. and john rockefeller would drive down the street throwing coins at them. not only were they that concerned and they openly mocked that way. that goes back to the point earlier about them not having fear in their hearts and feeling they can do anything without repercussions. >> d.c. right now is like the roaring '20s. they are doing fine. >> yeah. >> there are whole swaths of neighborhoods in colorado where only one family is living there because the rest of the neighborhood lost their homes. it's shocking.

>> unemployment among people with four-year college degrees in this country is hovering around 4%, and you have the tremendous, i think what glenn was saying and i have been writing about on the book i am working on, and we have a profound distance between the people making the policies, or the lack of policies, and what that does is aten yao waits things. we have seen it in the foreclosure crisis. every economists says we need to write down principle. we need to take the value and we need to make the banks or somebody take the losses. it doesn't happen, and doesn't map and doesn't happen because the people who are foreclosed on aren't the people in congress and they are not the lobbyist -- >> they are not the people in the media, either. they are not the media stars

that work for large corporations. the media used to be the outsiders, and now they are not. that changed the public discourse as well. >> you wanted to say something? >> you put your finger on something which is really true, and that's the extent to which there's a self mocking quality. and they are embarrassed by what they are doing. >> nervous laughter. >> they are not people not in touch with the people being foreclosed on, and they are the ones doing the foreclosing. >> they have to look you in the eye and say i am taking your home away. do you think repo men are happy? i don't think so. and it's a reflection of the terrible ambiguity where it's every person for himself. >> and you worry about -- one of the things that is remarkable about the recession in some ways, is the degree of social order that has been maintained. when you look at the depth of suffering and you look at how

bad it has been and how the prospects have been sir come scribed, and it's remarkable in a strange way. it's remarkable as bill daily said of politico, the president's approval rate something at a low percent. the thing i worry about is, it feels like the mood of the country is where there is a way in which this can go in an ugly way, or there is a way in where we can go in the more con sa solidarity -- >> we basically need the resurgence that together we can go forward. and one of the things, too, is how to get money out of politics. and increasingly the people

re-elected are not the people newly discovered. >> yeah, and it was like breaking news -- >> the mood of the country directly reflects the president of the united states and how he handled himself and carried himself. a lot of it has to do with how we connect the speech we gave about we are americans and buy america and all that resinated with some of us. >> i will tell you what you should know as you head into the next news week after this next break. ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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president obama's latest efforts might be lifted from the blueprint of a past president. that's according to one report. we will talk to the writer of that report. and a media blitz by bernie madoff's family, a new book by his son and interviews by his wife and are making headlines, but do they tell us anything new? insights from the "new york times" righter, and all of that coming up in about 15 minutes. >> thank you, craig. this is what i think you should know as we go into the week ahead. we think the world's 7 billionth person will be born. and you should also know that this is the single most important moral test of our generation, and it's one that right now we are failing. you should know that my wife and i are expecting our first child in a month, and it won't be the

7 billionth, but it will be the cutest. and then the poor job creators. you should know that barack obama has issued fewer new regulations, fewer than george w. bush had. the cost in the high estimates of three 100ths of the percent. and peanut butter is going up. and you should know that peanuts are one of many commodities traded through future markets that shows tremendous volatility in the past few years, and a drought hit peanuts hard and supply is down because a lot of farmers switched to other crops, like cotton d corn.

you should know that the euro zone has once again, at the last minute, avoided a genuine full scale cat clizam thanks to a new package negotiated. and merkel was able to do something few have been able to do, stare down the banks, and you should also know that while the new rescue package buys europe more time, it's still like all the other previous packages, insufficient to the task at hand. you will hear more from europe before it's over. you should know that nbc's new magazine show debuts on nbc monday night at 10:00 p.m., and their set, which is just across the hall is incredibly rad. and if you happen to see people walking around looking like this, or this, you should know that you can't just assume they

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♪ >> our guests are back to tell us what we should know and what you should know as the news unfolds this week. christopher dicky of "newsweek," what should folks know? >> we dodged a bullet last week when the europeans came to an agreement on what they were going to do on the debt crisis, but we're a long way from coming out of the woods on that one. and all the things we are talking about, the american economy, it can go to hell in an had basket if the europeans go

belly up. >> this story, the fact that europe and another global catac around the corner, it's amazing how much it doesn't factor in the american press. and then we hear these stories. oh, they came up with another deal, it's sort of another patch in the bottom of the ship, but it could -- >> yeah. it's all very, very, very tentative and ten wous. it all starts with greece having debt problems and now it's gone on to italy and much bigger economies. be and we're talking about a bailout fund that has to be in the trillions of dollars. >> and just so folks that understand, my understanding is that if the problem is greece, the resources are there if georgia ponies up and france ponies to create a fund that will have enough money to make sure there's not -- so they can protect the assets. greece is tiny. italy, on the other hand, is not tiny. >> one of the biggest problems in europe. >> and if the problem is italian

debt, which is beginning to look like it's moving in the direction that greek moved, there just isn't -- this is my amateur understanding, there just isn't enough resources to guarantee -- >> and a little bit the problem we have in the united states, a problem with political leadership and status. because in italy, they can't decide to do anything. berlusconi is a total burned out case. he's probably staying in office because he doesn't want to get prosecuted, looks like. and sarkozy would love to have obama's approval ratings. president of france, his approval ratings are stuck at about 30%. nothing, even having a baby, can't get him out of that. >> so dsk could actually win there? >> he could have won. >> it's also showing problems with the european union. it has to be based on more than just the political system. >> sure. >> what should folks know? >> i'm going to take you over to the soviet union. so recently they basically adopted the euro asia union,

where they're cobbling together the former satellite of what was the soviet union. belarus is already on board, kyrgyzstan is on board as well. but america, we're so entrenched to what's happening domestically, we're not paying attention to what's happening to what we used to consider our former nemesis. >> is that armageddon starting? >> putin is making a comeback, although he never quite left. glen greenwald, who should folks know? >> the occupy wall street movement, one is the weather and their ability to resist it. i was supposed to speak at occupy boston yesterday, but it was canceled due to the storm. now the question is can they endure this winter. and interestingly, unions are very experienced in sustaining themselves without protests and are working with these protesters to teach them how. the other aspect is the police response and what seems like a fairly coordinated effort to signal that the kind of unrest that you indicated earlier was

expected and didn't really happen, won't be tolerated, and it seems like the more aggressive the police reaction is the stronger the movement becomes. and this quandary is very difficult for them to navigate. >> it's funny, also, because those two things go together in my mind. it seems to me, if michael bloomberg felt like paying me a consulting contract for occupy wall street, why have these big police actions when the weather is beginning to end up being essentially your friend. if you want them to go away, why precipitate these dramatic clashes which have, as we've seen, the record is they only do more to feed the movement, they only sort of -- >> i think there's an expectation that there's going to be serious social unrest. there has to be with the disappearing middle class, with extreme levels of income inequality, there is elsewhere in the world, with less severe inequality and problems. and i think they've been planning and coordinating how to deal with this and this is a laboratory. their kind of response is

preprogrammed. even when it's successive, this is what they've planning for quite a while. >> and the anarchist elements have been marginalized by the occupy wall street movement. in europe, we see it all the time. >> particularly in italy. >> where these guys are just totally nuts. and it's a tiny group that comes out, creates enormous violence and then they disappear. >> one of the most fascinating texts i have read during occupy wall street was a text -- a journal of the radical left, which was a complaint by a very radical anarchist, who does not abide by nonviolence, he doesn't -- you know, he believes that violence is sometimes necessary, complaining about the if you h fuddy-duddies in occupy wall street who was so resolutely backing nonviolence. it was interesting to see this critique of occupy wall street by the centrist establishment folks. and i know folks at occupy wall

street, there's a tremendous amount of self-discipline. the one on zuccotti park is right on the corner of bank of america. all it takes is one idiot allowing a trash can or something like that, and you have not seen that. you've seen tremendous discipline around the country and down there, throughout. and i think that's another question, is how long that holds. >> how long that caricature can be sustained. because the focus on who the people are and the way they're behaving are so demonizing -- >> and i think that process -- sorry. i believe that fundamentally, the 99% still believe that democracy works. >> karen hunter, what should we know? >> a federal judge as approveded a $1.25 billion settlement for the black farmers. it's not 40 acres and a mule and took ten years to happen, but at least it tells people, discrimination, you'll have to pay for it eventually. kudos to them. it's just a small amount, but -- >> is this the second one that

came out of pickford? >> that was a year ago too. >> congress finally got its act together to pass it, and this is the final amount -- >> $1.25 billion. it's not enough, but at least it says you can't -- >> folks should go look up the details of the case. it's really -- it's shocking in how open and frank and aggressive the racism was in agricultural programs in the u.s. here. so people should go look that up. christopher dickey from "newsweek," he's the paris bureau chief, maria teresa kumar, also an msnbc contributor, the great glenn greenwald who writes for salon.com, has this great new book, "with liberty and justice for some," and karen hunter, msnbc contributor, "up the chris hayes veteran," thank you for joining us. my guests next week include martin bashir, erin brockovich, and peter singer.

so set your dvrs now, people. and in the meantime, you can find us on facebook. up next is "weekends with alex witt." we'll see you next week here on "up." . s and dipped in creamy peanut butter, making your craving for a sweet & salty bar irresistible, by nature valley.

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